<Albert> Well good evening everyone and thanks for being here ..

<Albert> I jumped in at the last minute after I heard that the speaker ..

<Albert> who was supposed to be here tonite could not make it. Eric and

<Albert> all others on #reefs were kind enough to take me up on it

<Albert> so Here I am

<Albert> What I suggest as a topic, is how to set up reefs, what to use, in what

<Albert> order we should set it up, what rock and sand to use and so

<Albert> and since I have not had time ...

<Albert> to prepare an intro in view of the fact that ..

<Albert> I only learned about your speaker not making it tonite around 6

<Albert> and then had to go to another appointment I really did not have

<Albert> the time but I am sure you people can come up with a million

<Albert> questions so anytime you want to start the question and

<Albert> answer session is fine with me. At

<Saltman> Question: How much live rock should you use when first starting a reef tank

<Albert> Good question indeed and there seems to be several ...

<Albert> schools of thought about this. I suggest to people who ask me

<Albert> to go with 1 lb minimum but no go over 1.5 as when you do ...

<Albert> so the tank becomes so loaded with rock that there is hardly ..

<Albert> space for anything else and you end up taking rock out ...

<Albert> when you start to add corals. I have even seen real nice

<Albert> set ups with as little as 0.5 pounds and 0.75 lbs of rock per

<Albert> actual gallon of water of the tank (not counting the sump).

<Albert> This seems to work well and leave enough space for adding all ..

<Albert> the corals we eventually want to add. In the beginning ..

<Albert> the tank may look a little bare but after we ..

<Albert> add corals whether LPS or SPS or any other form of animal ..

<Albert> the tank "meats" itself out nicely and looks more like a ...

<Albert> real reef. AT

<Saltman> Question: I'm converting from trickle filter to ls, I am stripping the tank, should I use a plenum?

<Albert> IMHO no.

<Albert> The reason ..

<Albert> over time the plenum loads itself with lots of nutrients ..

<Albert> amongst others nitrates, phosphates and silicates ...

<Albert> and there is the danger that these can ...

<Albert> re enter the tank's water through osmosis or through parts of ..

<Albert> the plenum grid that are not really tight at the edges ...

<Albert> against the glass or acrylic ..

<Albert> when this happens, these nutrients leach real slowly back into ..

<Albert> the tank's water and the end result is that you are plagued ..

<Albert> with constant algae or diatom problems and lower water quality ..

<Albert> This can also happen IME when the sand layer is thin and when

<Albert> osmosis allows the nutrients to re enter the water through the sand

<Albert> layer which cannot buffer the water in the tank from the water

<Albert> in the plenum enough so that nutrients leach back into the ..

<Albert> tank's water. This often results in diatoms growing .'..

<Albert> on top of the sand layer although when you measure your ..

<Albert> silicate levels they are well in the normal range that is ..

<Albert> suggested (0.5 ppm or less IME) yet diatoms grow on the sand anyway

<Albert> because silicate and silicic acid traverse the sand layer and

<Albert> result in nutrients for diatoms (and other algae) being available at the

<Albert> top of the sand layer, giving immediate rise to growth of ..

<Albert> diatoms and patches of algae at times. So although not everyone ..

<Albert> agrees with doing away with the plenum I have had ..

<Albert> better success with tanks without one and have feedback from ..

<Albert> hobbyists to the same effect. When no plenum is used ..

<Albert> the live sand performs in exactly the same manner as with the ..

<Albert> plenum as far as I have been able to determine. AT

<Saltman> Question: how much currert should be in the tank. Pumps just for cirruculation, not filtration?

<Albert> As much as possible and of the turbulent nature or kind ...

<Albert> I think that many of us have now changed our opinion about ...

<Albert> water movement and want lots of turbulence (ever watched a

<Albert> real reef ?) so that the corals remain clean and are receiving ..

<Albert> water movement and flow from different directions at all times ..

<Albert> Laminar currents which were talked about for some time, ..

<Albert> actually do not remain laminar at all as as soon as they hit ..

<Albert> rock, they turn into irregular current anyway ..

<Albert> Of course one needs to keep in mind that one may have corals that do

<Albert> not care for lots of turbulence and these corals would have ..

<Albert> to be placed in protected areas. I think this ...

<Albert> greatly reinforces the fact that we need to really know the ..

<Albert> requirements of our corals and what their natural biotope is all

<Albert> about as we need to then apply or transfer taht to the tank...

<Albert> Lately I guess this has led to a wider use of powerheads but ..

<Albert> also of the devices that make the current go in different ..

<Albert> directions (some call them oscillators) and that certainly is

<Albert> a good way of getting the current to become irregular ..

<Albert> which is the whole idea and what many authors presently seem ..

<Albert> to suggest. So to give you a short answer :

<Albert> know what the corals you have require and

<Albert> then provide it by means of whatever devices you need to use

<Albert> 'to do so and that may include the use of more than just ...

<Albert> one or two powerheads AT

<Saltman> Question: Are a pair of 400W 10K MH bulbs enough on their own, or supplementing with actinic flourescents be consider?

<Albert> The 10 000 Kelvin degree bulbs have quite a bit of blue actinic

<Albert> light in them so I do not IME feel that you need to supplement them

<Albert> with actinic unless you have corals or say clams that come from

<Albert> greater depths and need supplemental actinic or blue light ...

<Albert> Of course you could add a 20 K light to achieve that and mix

<Albert> it with the 10 K's. IME

<Albert> the best bulbs around right now are the 6500 K and the 10 000 K

<Albert> ones but that is only my personal feeling. I do not

<Albert> like the 20 000 Kelvin as they are too blow and too intense in

<Albert> photon irradiance and make lots of corals remain closed as they

<Albert> can get all the energy they need from just opening a little ..

<Albert> rather than fully. Exceptions exist of course and highly ..

<Albert> photosynthetic clams certainly fall into that category but there

<Albert> are other corals that require it too. Such lights are however iME bets

<Albert> best used in combination with the 10 K or the 6.5 K ones which ..

<Albert> if I remember correctly is what Fossa and Nilsen recommned ..

<Albert> as well AT

<Saltman> Question: Do you think on a 40 gallon tank 60watts of light is enough. 20w 50/50 20w full spectrum, and 20 w atinic?

<Albert> That really depends on what you have in the tank ..

<Albert> but in general based on what hobbyists place in their ..

<Albert> aquariums that would IMO be considered on the low side ..

<Albert> Now, that does not mean that your corals will not do well ..

<Albert> you may however get better results with more light or with ..

<Albert> higher K degree bulbs AT

<Saltman> Question: My tank is over a year old and I am having terrible nitrate problems. Currently at 80ppm, any suggestions?

<Albert> I would assume that that is the total NO3 level ..

<Albert> what I suggest you do ..

<Albert> is water changes to bring the level down and that you ..

<Albert> try to find out why the nitrates are that high ...

<Albert> If you have live rock and live sand in the aquarium ...

<Albert> the levels should gradually go down and should not rise ..

<Albert> to such levels. Perhaps you need to look at how much you feed and

<Albert> what you feed, how good your filtration is and whether you have

<Albert> enough rock and sand in the tank ...

<Albert> you may also need to look at what type of food you use and ..

<Albert> what type of supplements you add as some of them may be

<Albert> outside sources of NO3 in addition to all the NO3 that ..

<Albert> is produced in the tank as a result of metabolism and catabolism ..

<Albert> the raw water source may be a cause, the salt could be, ..

<Albert> the foodstuff used (especially if you use frozen cubes), ..

<Albert> your load may be so high that you need to look at what you ..

<Albert> need to do to lower the NO3. often water changes will give you ..

<Albert> good results and changing foods may be another way to go. Good ..

<Albert> skimming is another aspect to look at

<Albert> since highly efficient skimmers will lower the DOC

<Albert> and if the dissolved organic carbon is low, you will have far

<Albert> less nitrates in the tank. Cleaning detritus out of tank ..

<Albert> is another way to approach this and increasing the flow or

<Albert> turbulence in the tank so that organic deposits on the rock ..

<Albert> that eventually break down and mineralize and add NO3 and PO4 ..

<Albert> are dislogded from the rock and cannot decompose. It is

<Albert> a complex task but I think you need to find the real reason why

<Albert> they got so high besides lowering them AT

<Saltman> Question: How much substrate (and is it totally necessary) for a 55 gallon tank?

<Albert> About one pound of live sand per gallon is often recommended ..

<Albert> but I personally like to put more than that as I feel that ..

<Albert> I get a lot of benefit from the amount of live sand I add to ..

<Albert> the tank and therefore I like to use around 2 lbs per gallon ..

<Albert> Note that you do not need to start with all live sand ..

<Albert> you could start with maybe 1/4 of that as live sand and add ..

<Albert> small amounts of non live sand and let it become live over ..

<Albert> time by mixing it with the live sand. This is a slower ..

<Albert> process as you do not want, preferably, to add all that ..

<Albert> non live sand at once or you would probably choke the live sand ..

<Albert> and end up with the opposite of what you are really trying to

<Albert> accomplish. Good quality live sand is I think IMO a given ..

<Albert> you need to start with sand that is "really" live so that the ..

<Albert> non live that is added becomes live from transfer of bacteria and

<Albert> other lifeforms ..

<Albert> in this respect someone has been investigating the Home Depot ..

<Albert> tropical play sand (not their regular play sand) but ..

<Albert> the tropical one and found that it is really really low in ..

<Albert> silicate and would there fore make a real good sand to add

<Albert> to live sand already in the tank. Several people are looking ..

<Albert> into this and I guess we will know the outcome in a few weeks.

<Albert> Hope that answers the question if not pls ask for more details AT

<Saltman> Question: Are there any corals, polyps, mats etc., that can touch and not harm each other?

<Albert> This is a very general question and is really hard to answer for ..

<Albert> me because one needs to ...

<Albert> look at each pair of corals and see what the interaction is. To

<Albert> find the answers to this it is usually best to read up on ..

<Albert> corals and look at their nettling capability, whether they ..

<Albert> have sweeper tentacles etc ...

<Albert> Some know incompatibilities are obvious but generalizing is very ..

<Albert> difficult as you would have to give me pairs that you wnat to match so I could

<Albert> give you a more precise answer AT

<Saltman> Question: how can we determine the quality of live sand?

<Albert> Very hard indeed ..

<Albert> Buy from a reputable dealer and you will fare much better but ..

<Albert> there is a way that I have used to determine how "active" ..

<Albert> the sand actually is. let me explain ..

<Albert> Get live sand and place it in a small aquarium with some ..

<Albert> circulation. Add some ammonium chloride to that water and

<Albert> bring the ammonia level up to about 2 ppm ..

<Albert> Now monitor the ammonia level and see how long it takes the ..

<Albert> live sand to neutralize that ammonia. If it can do so ..

<Albert> in about 48 hours you have real active "live" sand, if ..

<Albert> it takes longer the sand is not really all taht live

<Albert> and if the ammonia does not seem to go down (and sometimes ..

<Albert> even rises) the sand you have is probably dead or laden with

<Albert> unwanted organic material ..

<Albert> Whether you actually want to conduct this test is up to you individually

<Albert> but it is a way of gauging how good some supplier's sand actually

<Albert> is and I have tested a couple of suppliers' sand that way AT

<Saltman> Question: Going back to the how much substrate for a 55 gallon tank. How deep is to deep, at what depth do I risk H2SO4 poisoning. Supposed to be different for 2mm and fine/sugar sized?

<Albert> I would say that you would want to put in ..

<Albert> about 110 pounds and I would need to calculate how much depth ..

<Albert> that is on a calculator to figure it out but it should,

<Albert> roughly remembering from previous calcs to about 2.5 inches ..

<Albert> and you should not have any problems with hydrogen sulfide

<Albert> at that level. One thing you can do to ensure that even the

<Albert> bottom layers remain live is to very very slowly

<Albert> stir the sand from time to time with a wooden or acrylic rod ..

<Albert> to move the sand around and to add lots of sand stirrers to the tank so

<Albert> that the sand remains in constant movement (slow but constant)..

<Albert> the grain size you mention is actually condusive to good movement

<Albert> as it is not too fine to "pack" and create possibly anaerobic ..

<Albert> pockets. So a little stirring in the beginning till you are ...

<Albert> sure the sand is really all live even at the bottom layers ..

<Albert> and adding large amounts of sand stirrers should allow you ..

<Albert> to avoid that problem easily AT

<Saltman> Question: What is needed to cause an open brain to thrive? How difficult are finger corals, especially the orange finger, Diodogorgia nodulifera?

<Albert> Open Brain is not difficult to keep as long as you provide moderate

<Albert> current and as long as you keep the water quality high and ..

<Albert> make sure iodine and strontium are in sufficient supply. You ..

<Albert> need to watch the alkalinity and make sure that it is in ..

<Albert> balance. You also need to watch your magnesium levels and ..

<Albert> make sure they do not fall below NSW standards which apparantly ..

<Albert> seem to happen to quite a few hobbyists. As to the finger coral, you need

<Albert> to ensure that no predators are present and that no bacterial

<Albert> infections are in the tank as that is usually what will ..

<Albert> result in problems with it and its demise AT

<Saltman> Question: Are there any angel of butterflys that can go in reef?

<Albert> Butterflies are IMO totally out. Some like to keep Pigmy angels ..

<Albert> but I am personally not even in favour of that as although ..

<Albert> they do not eat the polyps of corals they may nibble at the ..

<Albert> corals to determine whether they are actually food. They find ..'

<Albert> out is is not but in the process of doing so they harass ..

<Albert> the coral and this may result in the coral closing to ..

<Albert> protect itself and when a coral is closed it cannot ..

<Albert> feed and cannot photosynthesize. Since it can do neither ..

<Albert> it will starve and will start to show signs of receding or ..

<Albert> some breakdown of tissue as when closed it cannot even

<Albert> uptake the calcium and other elements it needs to do well

<Albert> So IMO I think to play it safe ..

<Albert> if is better to leave both angels and butterflies out of the ..

<Albert> tank. Now there seems to be a trend ..

<Albert> to put a Copperband in the tank from time to time for a little

<Albert> while and this is done to get rid of bristle worms and ..

<Albert> possibly Aiptasia anemones. Of course when this is done ..

<Albert> the Copperband cannot be left in the tank and needs to be ..

<Albert> removed when the Aiptasias are gone. The bristle worm

<Albert> eating is documented but is more anecdotal and is not as

<Albert> frequently mentioned as a cure for them AT

<Saltman> Last Question: which kinds of bacterial infections affect finger corals?

<Albert> Very difficult to answer because their are so many different ..

<Albert> ones that can occur in a reef tank. For instance

<Albert> Vibrio species are always present whether you like it or not ..

<Albert> and when a coral is stressed, Vibrio will attack en masse and ..

<Albert> harm the coral because of the sheer numbers that attach in one

<Albert> spot at the same time ...

<Albert> Aeronomas may be present and may settle on the coral

<Albert> and start to attack it as well and result in the damage or what is

<Albert> nowadays called tissue necrosis ...

<Albert> Yersinia is another type of bacterium ..

<Albert> that is found in reefs and can cause damage ..

<Albert> Renibacterium is yet another one and I could go on ..

<Albert> and on ..

<Albert> The key really is to ..

<Albert> have real good husbandry techniques and to ensure that the

<Albert> corals are not stressed so that none of these bacteria can ..

<Albert> get a grip on the corals (finger and others) and start ..

<Albert> to cause damage ...

<Albert> This can be done by using iodine and Lugol's as it not only ..

<Albert> provides corals with the amount they need but also acts as ..

<Albert> an antibacterial agent ...

<Albert> In addition (and sorry for the plug here I was trying to stay

<Albert> away from any) some have reported that the KSM product sold

<Albert> by TAD reefs who now own Thiel Aqua Tech as I have sold the

<Albert> company to them several months ago and am no longer in the

<Albert> product business ... when used in reef tanks fortifies the corals and \

<Albert> taht in tanks wehre it is used bacterial infections appear ..

<Albert> to be very rare. I would nevertheless ..

<Albert> suggest that you use iodine as an additonal method of prevention

<Albert> and that you "feed" all corals to make sure that disease ..

<Albert> does not start as a result of a nutritional deficiency

<Albert> The latter has gained more importance lately and several

<Albert> hobbyists I know are actively looking into whether or not ..

<Albert> such a nutrient deficiency could be the cause of the

<Albert> onset of disease of SPS and LPS corals. Ensuring that ..

<Albert> they are "fed" with rich foods may very well be the next issue

<Albert> we all have to look at carefully and consider. AT

<Albert> Thank you for being here and I enjoyed the chat very much and

<Albert> the questions were indeed excellent and challenging.

<Albert> I think the quality of knowledge of hobbyists on #reefs

<Norm_> Thanks Albert. That was a great talk. Do you think you could elaborate on the "feeding" of corals for us.

<Albert> is really high and that is to the credit of those who

<Albert> run #reefs. Yes I will gladly elaborate

<Albert> Feeding is best done by using a combination of

foods from

<Albert> a fishmarket. I use scallop, shrimp, mussel and fish roe and put

<Albert> all that through a blender until I have a milky liquid matter

<Albert> that when added clouds the tank. I turn off the skimmer

<Albert> I also prevnt the overlfow from working so that the food remains

<Albert> in the aquarium and that the corals are directly exposed to the food

<Albert> substance that is added ...

<Albert> and have to feed because food is

<Albert> all around them. I do this mostly at night. Leave the

<Albert> skimmer and overflow off for about one hour. That

<Albert> ensure good feeding for all corals IME ...

<Albert> Then I turn the skimmer back on and let it remove extra food

<Albert> that is still in the tank. Cloudiness will usually disappear

<Albert> in about 30 minutes as long as you use a real good quality

<Albert> skimmer so that excess foodstuff gets removed.

<Albert> If need be I perform a small water change too (5 percent or sometimes

<Albert> a little more) ..

<Albert> I do this once a week and find that this is plenty. if you ..

<Albert> have more questions on this feel free to ask AT

Albert Thiel is the webmaster of http://www.athiel.com